By Ms. Tenley Martin
Images: Courtesy of T. Martin
This is a continuation of a previously published article, which consisted of a Concert Review of Juan Martín’s performance at the Leeds Flamenco Festival (2014) and the first half of this interview.
Here, Juan continues speaking (among other things) about flamenco and fusion, his experience performing with Miles Davis, his experiences on the UK flamenco scene, and his course in Ronda.
Read Part 1 of this Juan Martin Interview series here.
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Tenley Martin: I found with fusion, with flamenco, I can get on board with it if it is clear that they are someone who was flamenco and knows how to use it in this other way. But often people come at it from other backgrounds and are just like ‘oh I think I’ll put a falseta in here’ without understanding.
Juan Martín: As you say, using a few falsetas does not mean you’ve suddenly become flamenco. People who originally were just jazz and then suddenly become flamenco, thinking it is easier to get work or something like that.
But I think the main thing is that if you are passionate about flamenco and what you do, that love will take you to where you want to go.
But if it is just opportunist ‘oh I can get more work’, equally it sounds like that. It isn’t felt in the same way.
Tenley Martin: I saw in your bio that you played with Miles Davis, that must have been incredible.
Juan Martín: Yeah at the Montreaux Jazz festival 1985 and 87 with Herbie Hancock. And Miles was so respectful of flamenco, because you know he did ‘Sketches’.
But also because he did a piece called ‘Solea’ on that as well. He did a very Payo version of solea, because he’s got the trumpet going in a very square way.
It’s ironic because he’s a jazz player. I think there’s a big respect for flamenco there. Someone like Miles with his sensibility, he would know there is a lot going on there, it’s got weight – peso.
That’s the fascinating thing with flamenco – you can play a falseta and someone would give it that peso and someone else would make it sound like candyfloss.
It’s all coming from within you and how you perceive that music, and life and everything.
It reflect the poetry and emotions of people and you know you can tell very quickly in a concert if someone has what you think is flamencura – duende.
Tenley Martin: It’s interesting you said that because when people in Sevilla have said to me ‘oh, why would you be able to understand it’ and I always say ‘well, when it comes down to it, flamenco is talking about these very basic human emotions and if you can access like that poetry and emotions, there’s no reason why I can’t understand it too’
Juan Martín: That’s absolutely right. In the end, there’s a lot of mystique around its music and rhythm. People like to make it like it’s a different thing altogether from music. It isn’t.
It’s a form of music and a form of dance. All the hand movements in the dancers are like ‘get lost’ a mi que. ‘You may be a duke, but I’m a flamenco. What do I care that you’re a duke. I don’t’.
And all the hand movements in the dance are like ‘eh’. That is a form of defence to society who are like ‘those Gypsies, they steal, they have a camp on the edge of town, they send their kids to steal’. All of that is ‘eh. I know I’m great.
I have an art that you bourgeois people can’t even think about’. They sense, they have anobility, a greatness, within their own souls and expression.
Which is a great defence against the bourgeois out there saying ‘oh you can’t do this, you can’t do that, you’re not decent’. ‘Yeah, but we’re free’.
Human beings are complex anyways, but when you get a whole race that stick together, not even the police will take on the Gypsies in certain places because they cannot control them. They are just too strong.
That need to be free. On the other hand, some of the most commercial people I’ve ever worked with have been Gitanos, who always want more money. Never happy.
Rafael Romero even had this letra that went ‘Tu me tiene que dar dinero, porque me oficio a Gitano’. Which means ‘you’ve got to give me money because my job is being a Gypsy’.
And that is how they think. But when you come from a long tradition, I suppose of being persecuted, you grow up with that, you know,
Tenley Martin: So why did you decide to come to England and when?
Juan Martín: I came to London in the 70s. I did a major Wigmore Hall concert, which is a venue for concerts of high level in classical or soloist, that sort of thing.
If you played at the Wigmore, it was a big thing, and to start a career there.
I’m playing there next year with the National Ensemble, which is a classical group. They’ve asked me to play as part of a celebration of French and Spanish music.
It’s a fantastic acoustic. So I came and I played there. I played the Festival Hall even before that. I came over with a couple of dancers and a singer, and the newspaper, national newspaper ‘The Daily Telegraph’ commented on me.
Maurice Rosenbaum, an expert of folk music and stuff like that, gave me a very good review and that led to a recording contract with the Decca Record Company at the time.
Then I signed with EMI Records at Abbey Road. That was where the Beatles recorded but before them, Yehudi Menuhin, Elgar, all these great people.
Then I married Helen and I became based in London. But every 2 or 3 days I’m down in Spain for one thing or another. I never lost it. But I saw in London at the time a centre that could get you out to the whole world. Whereas from Spain it related mainly to South America.
You’d get contacts in Mexico, Venezuela, but they wouldn’t get you to the States or Canada. Whereas, via London it’s completely different.
If you do a concert, it has a resonance in America It leads to invitations. It was a great musical centre, London.
I think now Spain has come right up, but the recording in that period with Decca and EMI couldn’t be compared with what they were doing in Spain.
But now, Spain is very high in that area. Although we are going through a tough time with the crisis.
London was exciting, it was a great big centre, much bigger than Madrid and had the capacity. I did fantastic concerts with the Royal Philharmonic and I made a record with them eventually. Then Ronnie Scott’s jazz club.
Now, Madrid is much more international, but at one time you wouldn’t have that possibility in jazz or the highest level of concert music. I’ve played the Barbican many times, I’ve had you know 2000 people there. You do the concert with that number of people. You saw last night, it was nowhere near that number but when you multiply that by whatever it was, you realize that this can be come enormous, this art.
And people sense there is so much there, something for everyone, the singing, the dancing, the guitar, the flute, the percussion, the this, the that, the everything.
So, you know we are in a music that is very great in that you can be a soloist, you can play for dancing, you can play with a fusion group.
It’s very rich and gives you many ways also to develop as a musician and to work.
Tenley Martin: I think you are probably one of the most recognizable names in this country in terms of guitar and flamenco…
Juan Martín: That produces a certain amount of envy too. But I think it has to be that way, it comes with the territory.
I’ve done a lot of books, given a lot back and a lot of people have studied with them. I mean, my original ‘Guitar Method’ is in its 15th print.
It’s been studied all over the world and stolen all over the world. All over Russia, China, Poland.
I’ve been in concerts in Poland where I’ve played that night and come out and they’re selling cassettes, they’ve recorded it and got it on a CD already, selling as I go out ‘you wanna hear the concert tonight’?
And then in China, I sent a CD to an organization, they reproduced it and then they sold thousands without paying me. Iran I’ve been to a couple times.
The first time I went to Iran I landed at Shiraz airport and there were all these people. I looked behind me expecting to see a premier or a president and they were like ‘no, no, no’.
There were 3000 people and they had been studying these videos of mine in Tehran and Shiraz. I did 3 nights in a row, sold out. Then went to Tehran. There they at 3500 people in the open air each night for 3 nights, in front of the Shah’s palace.
They won’t allow women because they are too exciting to look at. Even men are not allowed to dance. So the guitar is ok. If you take a singer they want a translation and that sort of thing. They love the flamenco scale because it is similar to their own scale.
And they admire enormously the flamenco technique. Of course, Paco took that to a level so high now. It set a very high standard that is respected in the jazz world and every other world.
I think that’s the sort of thing that’s helped break through with the bourgeois prejudice against flamenco in Spain. The fact that there is such an international acceptance.
I play with the Royal Philharmonic and you see Paco playing with John McLaughlin, and everyone else, so then Spain thinks ‘oh yes, well we’ll have some of that.
They are no longer prejudiced against flamencos’. What’s great is to see a young guy sing with his soul. That’s flamenco. But life is not walking through a meadow, it’s more complex.
Tenley Martin: Walking through the Grand Canyon, jumping over rocks and rattlesnakes..
Juan Martín: Exactly.
Tenley Martin: Tell me a bit about your program in Ronda.
Juan Martín: Well I’ve got a course. Doing it this year on the 22nd of this month to the 29th, 7 days. I think is the 4th or 5th year I’m doing it.
But it’s basically people coming from all over – America, Germany, Australia, all over. Sometimes they have studied with my books.
They come, I give a lesson every morning. It is very difficult with all the different levels to do it. The slow guy feel frustrated and the advanced guy feels frustrated because he wants to go fast.
However, I try very hard and we get very exhausted. Then we are all in the same hotel normally. Some people will stay elsewhere if they wish for more economic hotel.
Where we are is the Reina Victoria hotel, which is very beautiful, views of the beautiful Serranilla. And as I said in the concert, even the partners can come and if they don’t play guitar there are lovely gardens and pools and you can go in.
Trips around very interesting things to visit; Cueva de la Pileta – lovely old caves. Or you can just go around Ronda, which is a very dignified, ancient city.
It’s not touristy in the way. I mean there are tourists that come to see the Tajo – this wonderful gorge.
And then I do normally a book as well with certain material written out, because not everybody can pick up by ear. You know, they find it difficult.
Tenley Martin: You must be going very soon.
Juan Martín: Yeah, I’ll be going down beforehand to my home there – it’s not so far, just by the Ronda road. So, yeah quite soon.
Then I come back to London because I have a course at King’s Place on the 25th of July. For 4 days, I do a concert the first day and a class in the afternoon. It’s going to be hard. And then three more days after that I teach 6 hours a day to people
Tenley Martin: busy. I Hope you’re getting a holiday in there somewhere.
Juan Martín: Well, I hope to after that. I’m working with Chaparro de Malaga, doing a duo, and he’s coming over in October for a tour.
Tenley Martin: Is that going to be in England?
Juan Martín: Yeah. Chaparro follows my work in Spain from way back because I used to play Gerundino guitar from Almeria and he saw my album down there and was interested.
And then he got in touch and we started playing together. He’s a really nice player. He plays a lot for singing more than dancing.
Tenley Martin: I’ll come down.
Juan Martín: We’re coming to Leeds, [to Thorner Victory Hall].
Tenley Martin: I may have heard of it, I have some groups that I play.
Juan Martín: You run your own group?
Tenley Martin: A flamenco group, a Latin American folk group, a salsa band.
Juan Martín: You know, salsa is sexy. Easier to pick up. To get involved with flamenco you have to be more serious.
Tenley Martin: Yeah, you can’t really just dabble in flamenco for too long. Eventually you have to dive in to get it.
Juan Martín: Oh yeah, I mean understanding contratiempo and all this, be able to control your feet, you body, all that.
Tenley Martin: I have to say my favourite pieces you do are the Moorish ones. I saw you play at City Varieties last year
Juan Martín: Oh right, with the group. That is a lovely place. Reminded me of the Café Cantantes.
Tenley Martin: I always forget the time period, because they phased out but some are still there. One of the tablaos was one of the old ones…
Juan Martín: With the Moorish music, I’ve always felt a strong connection. I’ve also worked with my Musíca Alhambra group, I’ve performed with people from the Middle East, looking into the Moorish roots of flamenco.
I think I tend to go back to that rather than the jazz routes. Because for me, it’s part of flamenco in that Andalucía was under Islamic rule from 711-1492, nearly 800 years.
It’s kind of honest to the music. That Moorish sound, gives flamenco a sound that no other folk music in Europe has. The flamenco singing is very obviously influenced, isn’t it?
And the guitar gives it this precision, contrast to the singing. All those arpeggios, but then I like to take from the singing the Moorish sound, pastiche of Moorish which a lot of Zambra Moras are when you put them on the guitar.
Having played with Arabic musicians from Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, so on, I’ve really picked up that quarter-tone feel.
You can’t do quarter-tone on the guitar but nearly I can, through bending strings, rather like you have a Blues bend, you can sort of have a Moorish bend.
Tenley Martin: I really enjoyed it, I really like it when I hear musicians that have clearly researched rather than ‘oh I’m going to play a bulerías, I’m going to play an Alegría’, expand the compás.
Juan Martín: It all gets a bit the same, doesn’t it? You have to have your own, as we say, propio sello – own stamp. Otherwise ‘another bulería, another solea’ and all of them play quite well.
Tenley Martin: I find when you play things like that too, you’re educating an audience. They might not realize it, because you are playing something relevant to the art but a lot of people won’t play it for them.
Juan Martín: Yeah. I use this friend of mine, Chris Karan, the percussionist. Years ago on EMI recording, the opening track was with a darabuka.
That had never been used before. Even though he’s a jazz drummer also, he does all these percussion instruments, plays lovely cabasa. Shekere. So varied compared to many.
Darabuka can be very loud, I prefer almost tabla with guitar. He [Chris] studied with Alla Rakha who was the percussionist of Ravi Shankar.
The way that they vocalize what they have just played is incredible, have you heard them? He has been a great ally for me, all these different instruments and colours.
Tenley Martin: So what advice would you give to people that actually want to understand flamenco?
Juan Martín: To understand? If they want to do it themselves? Well, you should expose yourself to it as much as possible in every way – recordings, you listen to a lot of singing, guitar, even dance – in the case of Carmen Amaya, you can check out ‘Queen of the Gypsies’ – with Sabicas.
There is so much available on YouTube, any artist you can just Google who you are interested in and see films on flamenco.
Everything is there. At one point those recursos weren’t there – you had to find out. I learned by slowing a record down from 33 to 16 – learning by ear.
But that taught the ear to work as a muscle almost, whereas if you get everything from tablature, in a way your ear isn’t working, just your eye.
So you need to test yourself in that way, work out things by watching. You know what I’m saying? Otherwise it is a dormant muscle, the ear.
It needs to be worked. I think then take a trip – there are so many courses now, you can take a trip to Sevilla, to Jerez, to Ronda – come down for a week- and expose yourself to flamenco.
Live it, if you have the time, if not do what you can – holiday in Spain, try to get involved. I think that is probably the way. But if you are a guitarist, obviously you need decent guitar and if you are a dancer, shoes, all that. Not many feel they can learn to sing – it’s very difficult.
Tenley Martin: I find that it is something I’ve grown to appreciate its importance more and more, but it’s hard for people in this country. Most neglected thing outside of Spain and maybe the most important inside, depending on the city.
Juan Martín: The flamenco festivals in Andalucía are mainly based around singers. The dancers come on at the interval and everyone goes to the bar.
The presenter has to say ‘Por favor, baile es una parte de flamenco por favor. Quedarse.’ There’s a lot of people in the festivals, only interested in the poetry of the words. Someone like El Cabrero is a – sings quite political letras.
People say ‘Ole’ when he talks about El Papa de Roma, what about us starving. It’s like a social comment.
But the dance paradoxically, out of Spain, is the most popular thing, along with guitar and the singing is not. In Spain, in Andalucía, singing is the thing, and the guitarist.
I can remember playing in in the festival de Ojén- a very important festival in Malaga zone. And there would be notices up ‘el saber escuchar es un arte’– to tell people to shut up because when the guitar is playing people talk and when the singer starts, they shut up.
Maybe you’ve got a fantastic player like Enrique de Melchor, playing beautifully and the people are just talking, putting the sherry back.
But the guy’s been studying 8 hrs a day for years. Whereas, like last night, the lovely thing is that the people have come to listen and you’re not having to say ‘shhhh’ like that, they want you. That’s nice.
About Tenley Martin
Tenley Martin is a flamencologist and professional percussionist (classical and Latin) based at University of Leeds. She has been studying flamenco culture, music and globalization for the last 5 years. She is currently completing a PhD regarding intercultural exchange through flamenco between the UK and Spain. She also performs with several UK-based flamenco groups. Samuel Moore is the Director of Music at Arts at Trinity, Course Leader for Flamenco Guitar Studies at Instituto de Cervantes Leeds, a professional guitarist, and published author.
I would like to thank Juan and Helen Martín for their time and a wonderful interview experience. I would also like to thank Samuel Moore and Guitar International for the opportunity to publish it.
